1303

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Re: 1303

Postby Milkfloat » 11 Sep 2017, 19:07

Lets not continue to delude ourselves that crowds were bigger in the past; Barnet v Morecambe at Underhill on Tuesday 18 August 2009 attracted the grand total of 1,298 paying customers. Twas a League 2 match. At least one or two of them must have been away supporters. The Saturday prior to that we only had 1,835 v Shrewsbury.

We have never attracted very big crowds in August. They normally pick up as we get into October and November. Our averages were probably also bumped up a bit by the end of season houdini acts that we managed a couple of times. Sure we could do better but its probably a bit early in the season to pass judgement. So far, we ain't doing too bad and if we continue to play like we did on Saturday, the crowds will grow.
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Re: 1303

Postby Norfolkbee » 11 Sep 2017, 19:08

Edd1 wrote:Ultimately the punters turn up to see teams that win games with style.

It's a simple formula and may even seem rather obvious to say it but it is the truth.

The trouble Barnet have is they never kicked on from promotion in 2005. We got promoted and then stagnated. It was dull. It was mid table mediocrity and it wasn't even like, under any manager, there was any cavalier style football to make it more interesting. What was happening on the pitch was consistently pretty tedious.

The last two seasons again have been pretty average.

In recent weeks there have been signs that maybe, just maybe, things might be different this time round. Things are looking interesting on the pitch again. We'll have to wait and see. It won't happen over night but if after Christmas we're still winning games, looking like contenders and banging in the goals I'll expect to see people driffting back. But for now I think an awful lot of people are just bored.

On another side of things I don't actually think that the other London clubs fans are who we should be trying to get through the door. Those supporters have their loyalties on our door step. What instead we should be looking at more is all those fans of far away clubs who end up in London due to economics. Burnley and Plymouth in particular (but there are others) are renowned for their London based support. People who have ended up here because of economic stagnation at home. These fans are often already in the habit of watching football but only normally see them when they are playing away in London. They are looking for a footy fix. They are who we should be trying to market to and get their bums on seats.

Spot on about not kicking on after 2005, but perhaps that this was due to being held back by all the shenanigans over Underhill, as well as the crap football being served up.
I think TK was more preoccupied with off-the-field issues and was happy to leave football matters in the hands of PF, who was hardly a roaring success at EFL level, despite talking a good game.
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Re: 1303

Postby RichardM » 11 Sep 2017, 20:58

beew wrote:If you've ever been in the West stand bar before a game when the Spuds or Arsenal are playing, you'll probably have noticed the roar that goes up when they score. The only other roar is when Chelsea are playing and concede. Other London clubs there's not much of an interest who wins. Not a scientific study but it does suggest there's a liking for North London PL clubs within our support. Some are coming to Barnet as it's nigh on impossible for them to get tickets to watch their original sides. This is still the case at The Emerates but now an opportunity has arisen to go and see the Spuds for a similar price to Barnet for a season. As an U18 you can go to some games for £8.

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/uploade ... p17-18.jpg

I personally think that once the novelty wears out, and the inevitable toxic atmosphere descends on Wembley, as they fall down the table, many will come back, to watch our title challenge.


Spoken like a true Arsenal supporter.
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Re: 1303

Postby Hiveoccupier » 11 Sep 2017, 21:01

Norfolkbee wrote:
Edd1 wrote:Ultimately the punters turn up to see teams that win games with style.

It's a simple formula and may even seem rather obvious to say it but it is the truth.

The trouble Barnet have is they never kicked on from promotion in 2005. We got promoted and then stagnated. It was dull. It was mid table mediocrity and it wasn't even like, under any manager, there was any cavalier style football to make it more interesting. What was happening on the pitch was consistently pretty tedious.

The last two seasons again have been pretty average.

In recent weeks there have been signs that maybe, just maybe, things might be different this time round. Things are looking interesting on the pitch again. We'll have to wait and see. It won't happen over night but if after Christmas we're still winning games, looking like contenders and banging in the goals I'll expect to see people driffting back. But for now I think an awful lot of people are just bored.

On another side of things I don't actually think that the other London clubs fans are who we should be trying to get through the door. Those supporters have their loyalties on our door step. What instead we should be looking at more is all those fans of far away clubs who end up in London due to economics. Burnley and Plymouth in particular (but there are others) are renowned for their London based support. People who have ended up here because of economic stagnation at home. These fans are often already in the habit of watching football but only normally see them when they are playing away in London. They are looking for a footy fix. They are who we should be trying to market to and get their bums on seats.

Spot on about not kicking on after 2005, but perhaps that this was due to being held back by all the shenanigans over Underhill, as well as the crap football being served up.
I think TK was more preoccupied with off-the-field issues and was happy to leave football matters in the hands of PF, who was hardly a roaring success at EFL level, despite talking a good game.


With the resources he had at his disposal PF did a brilliant job to keep us in the league, give us our best ever runs in the FA Cup and bring through some of the greatest talent the club has had through its books. He is a BFC Legend and there shouldn't be a question about it.
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Re: 1303

Postby RichardM » 11 Sep 2017, 21:04

rudebwoyben wrote:
Norfolkbee wrote:
rudebwoyben wrote:There is also no way that B'wood have 656 fans!

So maybe they picked up a few of our casual supporters - tasty match, cheaper admission and all that.


Why would Orient be such a big draw for them when we played them last season?
Orient fans themselves have said that B'wood overstated the home crowd for Saturday's match so as to not appear so massively outnumbered. Borehamwood never get more than 300 home fans for any of their matches.
Also, Fleetwood are not a good example for us to follow. They are a bankrolled club whose chairman can afford to massively reduce ticket prices. Also, before Piley took over there Fleetwood had never played above Northern Premier League level so promotion to the National League was bound to result in a big increase in attendances.

Nonetheless, it does appear that there has been a decrease in our home attendances this season. These may pick up as the season progresses but to me it's clear that the club needs to engage in a sustained long-term marketing strategy to attract new fans from the local area.


The average home attendance for the first 3 league games at The Hive this season has been 1,365. Last season it was 1,319. Not a great difference but nevertheless an increase.
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Re: 1303

Postby barnet_pls » 11 Sep 2017, 21:07

Milkfloat wrote:Lets not continue to delude ourselves that crowds were bigger in the past; Barnet v Morecambe at Underhill on Tuesday 18 August 2009 attracted the grand total of 1,298 paying customers. Twas a League 2 match. At least one or two of them must have been away supporters. The Saturday prior to that we only had 1,835 v Shrewsbury.

We have never attracted very big crowds in August. They normally pick up as we get into October and November. Our averages were probably also bumped up a bit by the end of season houdini acts that we managed a couple of times. Sure we could do better but its probably a bit early in the season to pass judgement. So far, we ain't doing too bad and if we continue to play like we did on Saturday, the crowds will grow.


Spot on - and you can go back much further than 2009 ie 1997 etc to make the same point. Barnet crowds are quite fickle and never reflect the heights that performance might merit. Remember in 1999/2000 when we challenged automatic and still didn't get an average much near 3000.......
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Re: 1303

Postby hoppy » 11 Sep 2017, 21:15

If results go their way (they win and we win) Accrington Stanley could go top tomorrow. Accy's average attendance is 1797.
Long live the underdog.
Last edited by hoppy on 11 Sep 2017, 21:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1303

Postby BeesKnees » 11 Sep 2017, 21:41

Why are we comparing Tuesday nights in August against teams from miles away to Saturdays against our nearest rivals. What do you think that proves?

The football in 1999 was awful despite the results. The good football we are playing now will only result in a regular increase in attendance if people see it. We desperately need a cup run with a big draw at the Hive to tempt in neutrals.
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Re: 1303

Postby Itai-bee » 11 Sep 2017, 21:50

RichardM wrote:
rudebwoyben wrote:
Norfolkbee wrote:
rudebwoyben wrote:There is also no way that B'wood have 656 fans!

So maybe they picked up a few of our casual supporters - tasty match, cheaper admission and all that.


Why would Orient be such a big draw for them when we played them last season?
Orient fans themselves have said that B'wood overstated the home crowd for Saturday's match so as to not appear so massively outnumbered. Borehamwood never get more than 300 home fans for any of their matches.
Also, Fleetwood are not a good example for us to follow. They are a bankrolled club whose chairman can afford to massively reduce ticket prices. Also, before Piley took over there Fleetwood had never played above Northern Premier League level so promotion to the National League was bound to result in a big increase in attendances.

Nonetheless, it does appear that there has been a decrease in our home attendances this season. These may pick up as the season progresses but to me it's clear that the club needs to engage in a sustained long-term marketing strategy to attract new fans from the local area.




The average home attendance for the first 3 league games at The Hive this season has been 1,365. Last season it was 1,319. Not a great difference but nevertheless an increase.


A INCREASE ?!?!
So the problem is,We are too cheap.
TK put your prices up.
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Re: 1303

Postby Norfolkbee » 11 Sep 2017, 22:07

Hiveoccupier wrote:
Norfolkbee wrote:
Edd1 wrote:Ultimately the punters turn up to see teams that win games with style.

It's a simple formula and may even seem rather obvious to say it but it is the truth.

The trouble Barnet have is they never kicked on from promotion in 2005. We got promoted and then stagnated. It was dull. It was mid table mediocrity and it wasn't even like, under any manager, there was any cavalier style football to make it more interesting. What was happening on the pitch was consistently pretty tedious.

The last two seasons again have been pretty average.

In recent weeks there have been signs that maybe, just maybe, things might be different this time round. Things are looking interesting on the pitch again. We'll have to wait and see. It won't happen over night but if after Christmas we're still winning games, looking like contenders and banging in the goals I'll expect to see people driffting back. But for now I think an awful lot of people are just bored.

On another side of things I don't actually think that the other London clubs fans are who we should be trying to get through the door. Those supporters have their loyalties on our door step. What instead we should be looking at more is all those fans of far away clubs who end up in London due to economics. Burnley and Plymouth in particular (but there are others) are renowned for their London based support. People who have ended up here because of economic stagnation at home. These fans are often already in the habit of watching football but only normally see them when they are playing away in London. They are looking for a footy fix. They are who we should be trying to market to and get their bums on seats.

Spot on about not kicking on after 2005, but perhaps that this was due to being held back by all the shenanigans over Underhill, as well as the crap football being served up.
I think TK was more preoccupied with off-the-field issues and was happy to leave football matters in the hands of PF, who was hardly a roaring success at EFL level, despite talking a good game.


With the resources he had at his disposal PF did a brilliant job to keep us in the league, give us our best ever runs in the FA Cup and bring through some of the greatest talent the club has had through its books. He is a BFC Legend and there shouldn't be a question about it.

Yes, but he never kicked on when he had the golden opportunity. We had a good team when it won the Conference, but it lacked depth. PF supplemented it with players like Adam Gross, Ross Flitney and Jason Norville. He was also the man who had the ingenious idea of playing Graz upfront alone. Basically, he allowed the momentum to be lost.
I accept he was a good manager in the FA Cup, which was clear from his Stevenage days.
Yes, he will always be a legend for winning the Conference, but his EFL record was decidedly average and the stats will be testament to that. They don't lie.
Last edited by Norfolkbee on 11 Sep 2017, 22:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1303

Postby beew » 11 Sep 2017, 22:18

Unless we see an increase in the long term, then the membership prices will increase. There's not much TK can do if the non members stay away.
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Re: 1303

Postby Edd1 » 12 Sep 2017, 06:30

BeesKnees wrote:Why are we comparing Tuesday nights in August against teams from miles away to Saturdays against our nearest rivals. What do you think that proves?

The football in 1999 was awful despite the results. The good football we are playing now will only result in a regular increase in attendance if people see it. We desperately need a cup run with a big draw at the Hive to tempt in neutrals.


That argument implies that a lot of people have stopped coming altogether. Other than the handful of anti Hive and anti TK people I don't know of anyone that has stopped altogether. What I do know a fare few of is people who come less often than they did. Partly it's an awkward location but partly because they have been bored.

Someone referred to PF as a legend. Nice guy, won the conference but seriously, a lot of the football was just pedestrian and dull. It wasn't horrible like under John Still. But neither was it thrill a minute stuff. Entertain the punters, win games and they will come more often. It doesn't need to get on tv. They'll see it and those that don't can read a league table.
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Re: 1303

Postby becbee » 12 Sep 2017, 07:16

I can agree that fans are more likely to come to be entertained and see a winning team. But it's not as simple as that. The clubs with lowest attendances in L2 every season are the same 4-5 clubs, regardless of their league position. Yet last season, Leyton Orient and Hartlepool were 9th and 14th in the L2 attendance table despite results which saw them relegated. Stockport County still get about 2500 home supporters despite languishing in Conference North and having the 2 Manchester clubs on their doorstep.
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Re: 1303

Postby hoofer2 » 12 Sep 2017, 08:02

I am now one of those fans who will only be able to attend a handful of matches each season :(

I run a Cub pack on Tuesday evenings, and on Saturdays childrens activities have been prioritised as it's impossible
to be in 4 places at once (all 3 kids kid had full memberships until very recently ).

My heart and mind is always occupied with Barnet on Saturday afternoons Tuesday evenings even if I cannot be there
in person.

In my opinion the saturation of football on TV will account for the floating fans not attending matches, though for me there
-is nothing like being at a match live - missing 3 goals out of six because your youngest needed the toilet.

I look at it another way, 1300 is a good core and where we are located in an impossible city to grow our fanbase compared to others
such as Cambridge / Oxford / Swindon that have one dominant club. (we have Watford/Spurs/Arsenal/QPR/Chelsea/Wembley Stadium within a short
journey by public transport) The only thing that is going to increase the numbers is a period of sustained success on the pitch culminating to promotion to League 1 and a few decent cup runs. Sadly kids who are brought up on a diet of Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga etc. sadly think that anything below Premier League / Championship is s**t and as for the non-league scene well....

When I started watching Barnet regularly in the 1980s, you simply had to attend matches. Now if a kids parents / guardians are happy to
settle for watching footie on TV only, it is clear that the kid will too.
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Re: 1303

Postby BeesKnees » 12 Sep 2017, 08:03

Edd1 wrote:
BeesKnees wrote:Why are we comparing Tuesday nights in August against teams from miles away to Saturdays against our nearest rivals. What do you think that proves?

The football in 1999 was awful despite the results. The good football we are playing now will only result in a regular increase in attendance if people see it. We desperately need a cup run with a big draw at the Hive to tempt in neutrals.


That argument implies that a lot of people have stopped coming altogether. Other than the handful of anti Hive and anti TK people I don't know of anyone that has stopped altogether. What I do know a fare few of is people who come less often than they did. Partly it's an awkward location but partly because they have been bored.

Someone referred to PF as a legend. Nice guy, won the conference but seriously, a lot of the football was just pedestrian and dull. It wasn't horrible like under John Still. But neither was it thrill a minute stuff. Entertain the punters, win games and they will come more often. It doesn't need to get on tv. They'll see it and those that don't can read a league table.


I believe the question is more complicated than that and I'm not implying a lot of people have stopped coming.
It's not only those who stopped coming\ come less often, it's also those who never came. Over 5 years you will have fans who stop coming for other reasons (family, moving away, no longer with us etc) that have to be replaced by new supporters (people moving in, teenagers).
The question is what is attracting a teenager in Barnet or Edgware to suddenly take an interest and form a bond with the club. Good football they don't see and being in the top 10 wont create the buzz that gets them in, but if you look at teams that recently had big home cup draws then you can see that it raised local awareness and got a lot through the doors, with decent numbers coming back. It's not about being on TV, it's about associating having a good experience at the Hive.
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