TK "Never Again"

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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby Norfolkbee » 09 Feb 2018, 13:45

Ok, may be a lot of the views expressed (mine included) are frustration, but the fact remains that TK has to find a solution to the problems that perpetually beset the football side. Even some of his most ardent cheerleaders have admitted that he is lacking when it comes to his choice of manager.
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby rudebwoyben » 09 Feb 2018, 13:58

Tuesds wrote:As owner and Chairman, Kleanthous is ultimately responsible for the club's fortunes. We're 7 points adrift from safety at the bottom of the league, so he's going to get criticised. Personally, I think he made a critical mistake when he brought McGhee in over Eames's head, without consulting him or, if he did, without winning his agreement first. Bringing in an experienced, high profile figure to help guide an inexperienced manager at a time of crisis was a logical thing to do... but not without that manager's approval, and as we know it precipitated Eames's resignation and gave us two months with a manager who didn't want to be doing the job - and it showed.

Lots of other things have been said here, with reasonable views on all sides... BUT, three things get my proverbial goat:

1. Why do people see conspiracies or malign motives everywhere? I mean, Kleanthous tying the division's best striker (and the club) to a very expensive 3 year deal when most clubs would have cashed in long ago was a definite misstep in his plot to return the team to the Conference so he can run the team more cheaply and concentrate on oh my god it's so ridiculous I can't even finish this bit.

We are clearly spending vastly more on the playing staff than ever before in our history, in real terms. That's a fact. It's been badly spent in many instances, without question, but there are cheaper and more effective ways of purposefully neglecting the footballing side of a football club!

2. This notion that 'TK promised us we'd be challenging/we'd never struggle again..." Good grief. At the start of the season, there are 23 clubs who are confident they won't struggle. Our last three seasons have seen us win the Conference title and then twice finish comfortably in mid table in League 2. These have been followed by a season of severe struggle, and we all hate that. But if your response to it is 'TK promised me this couldn't happen' (he didn't), you might want to reassess things.

3. All this 'I've finally had enough' stuff... If people want to spend their own time and money on something other than following Barnet FC, that is their choice. But this idea that we have somehow had it particularly bad over the last 20 years often goes unchallenged here, and it's peculiar to me.

The four straight years of relegation battles are often trotted out, so as a modicum of counter-balance, once in a while perhaps it's worth recalling just a few of the other features of this period of supposed misery such as winning two Conference league titles, making the play-offs, two club-record FA Cup runs, going to Old Trafford (and the AMEX and St Andrews and Molinuex and the Madejski and the Liberty Stadium and more...), and enjoying thrillingly talented players turning out for our club, such as Currie, Bailey, Puncheon, Adomah, Bolasie, Davids (!), Villa and Akinde, alongside modern-day club heroes such as Harrison, Yakubu, Yiadom and more.

In other words, I'm proud of my club, and I'll still be proud of it if we go down to non league. Where, of course, this club has spent over 80% of its history.

Throughout this period, how much time have we spent at the same level as clubs with smaller support bases than us? Even in the Conference, supposedly medium-sized clubs such as Chester, Aldershot and Woking always get bigger home crowds than us when we're playing at the same level. If we should all be 'embarrassed' by our 'disgraceful' club, how should they feel about the fact that we are always or nearly always sat above them in the football pyramid?

Unless you support a club financed by Emirati oil wealth, you aren't going to win everything every year. And even then you might lose occasionally to the club funded by the Russian Oligarch. Every other club wins some and, more often, fails to win some.


I agree with all of your post but when have we ever played at the Madjelski stadium? :geahh:

Tony K has certainly not got a great record in football management appointments. Perhaps something like a Director of Football would make a better call?
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby Norfolkbee » 09 Feb 2018, 14:02

rudebwoyben wrote:
Tuesds wrote:As owner and Chairman, Kleanthous is ultimately responsible for the club's fortunes. We're 7 points adrift from safety at the bottom of the league, so he's going to get criticised. Personally, I think he made a critical mistake when he brought McGhee in over Eames's head, without consulting him or, if he did, without winning his agreement first. Bringing in an experienced, high profile figure to help guide an inexperienced manager at a time of crisis was a logical thing to do... but not without that manager's approval, and as we know it precipitated Eames's resignation and gave us two months with a manager who didn't want to be doing the job - and it showed.

Lots of other things have been said here, with reasonable views on all sides... BUT, three things get my proverbial goat:

1. Why do people see conspiracies or malign motives everywhere? I mean, Kleanthous tying the division's best striker (and the club) to a very expensive 3 year deal when most clubs would have cashed in long ago was a definite misstep in his plot to return the team to the Conference so he can run the team more cheaply and concentrate on oh my god it's so ridiculous I can't even finish this bit.

We are clearly spending vastly more on the playing staff than ever before in our history, in real terms. That's a fact. It's been badly spent in many instances, without question, but there are cheaper and more effective ways of purposefully neglecting the footballing side of a football club!

2. This notion that 'TK promised us we'd be challenging/we'd never struggle again..." Good grief. At the start of the season, there are 23 clubs who are confident they won't struggle. Our last three seasons have seen us win the Conference title and then twice finish comfortably in mid table in League 2. These have been followed by a season of severe struggle, and we all hate that. But if your response to it is 'TK promised me this couldn't happen' (he didn't), you might want to reassess things.

3. All this 'I've finally had enough' stuff... If people want to spend their own time and money on something other than following Barnet FC, that is their choice. But this idea that we have somehow had it particularly bad over the last 20 years often goes unchallenged here, and it's peculiar to me.

The four straight years of relegation battles are often trotted out, so as a modicum of counter-balance, once in a while perhaps it's worth recalling just a few of the other features of this period of supposed misery such as winning two Conference league titles, making the play-offs, two club-record FA Cup runs, going to Old Trafford (and the AMEX and St Andrews and Molinuex and the Madejski and the Liberty Stadium and more...), and enjoying thrillingly talented players turning out for our club, such as Currie, Bailey, Puncheon, Adomah, Bolasie, Davids (!), Villa and Akinde, alongside modern-day club heroes such as Harrison, Yakubu, Yiadom and more.

In other words, I'm proud of my club, and I'll still be proud of it if we go down to non league. Where, of course, this club has spent over 80% of its history.

Throughout this period, how much time have we spent at the same level as clubs with smaller support bases than us? Even in the Conference, supposedly medium-sized clubs such as Chester, Aldershot and Woking always get bigger home crowds than us when we're playing at the same level. If we should all be 'embarrassed' by our 'disgraceful' club, how should they feel about the fact that we are always or nearly always sat above them in the football pyramid?

Unless you support a club financed by Emirati oil wealth, you aren't going to win everything every year. And even then you might lose occasionally to the club funded by the Russian Oligarch. Every other club wins some and, more often, fails to win some.


I agree with all of your post but when have we ever played at the Madjelski stadium? :geahh:

Tony K has certainly not got a great record in football management appointments. Perhaps something like a Director of Football would make a better call?

Fully agree with that, but it would involve TK dropping an important part of his micro-management style.
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby Tuesds » 09 Feb 2018, 14:22

rudebwoyben wrote:I agree with all of your post but when have we ever played at the Madjelski stadium? :geahh:



Good question! God knows where I was thinking of there. I’ll change it to Elland Road, which is a better ground anyway! Thanks!
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby rudebwoyben » 09 Feb 2018, 14:30

Tuesds wrote:
rudebwoyben wrote:I agree with all of your post but when have we ever played at the Madjelski stadium? :geahh:



Good question! God knows where I was thinking of there. I’ll change it to Elland Road, which is a better ground anyway! Thanks!


As far as I remember, we've only ever played at Reading's ground once and that was in 93/94 when they were still at Elm Park. Unfortunately, I missed our trip to Elland Road.
I have to say that the Madjelski does not look like an exciting venue to visit.
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby ninestein » 09 Feb 2018, 14:30

Norfolkbee wrote:
rudebwoyben wrote:
Tuesds wrote:As owner and Chairman, Kleanthous is ultimately responsible for the club's fortunes. We're 7 points adrift from safety at the bottom of the league, so he's going to get criticised. Personally, I think he made a critical mistake when he brought McGhee in over Eames's head, without consulting him or, if he did, without winning his agreement first. Bringing in an experienced, high profile figure to help guide an inexperienced manager at a time of crisis was a logical thing to do... but not without that manager's approval, and as we know it precipitated Eames's resignation and gave us two months with a manager who didn't want to be doing the job - and it showed.

Lots of other things have been said here, with reasonable views on all sides... BUT, three things get my proverbial goat:

1. Why do people see conspiracies or malign motives everywhere? I mean, Kleanthous tying the division's best striker (and the club) to a very expensive 3 year deal when most clubs would have cashed in long ago was a definite misstep in his plot to return the team to the Conference so he can run the team more cheaply and concentrate on oh my god it's so ridiculous I can't even finish this bit.

We are clearly spending vastly more on the playing staff than ever before in our history, in real terms. That's a fact. It's been badly spent in many instances, without question, but there are cheaper and more effective ways of purposefully neglecting the footballing side of a football club!

2. This notion that 'TK promised us we'd be challenging/we'd never struggle again..." Good grief. At the start of the season, there are 23 clubs who are confident they won't struggle. Our last three seasons have seen us win the Conference title and then twice finish comfortably in mid table in League 2. These have been followed by a season of severe struggle, and we all hate that. But if your response to it is 'TK promised me this couldn't happen' (he didn't), you might want to reassess things.

3. All this 'I've finally had enough' stuff... If people want to spend their own time and money on something other than following Barnet FC, that is their choice. But this idea that we have somehow had it particularly bad over the last 20 years often goes unchallenged here, and it's peculiar to me.

The four straight years of relegation battles are often trotted out, so as a modicum of counter-balance, once in a while perhaps it's worth recalling just a few of the other features of this period of supposed misery such as winning two Conference league titles, making the play-offs, two club-record FA Cup runs, going to Old Trafford (and the AMEX and St Andrews and Molinuex and the Madejski and the Liberty Stadium and more...), and enjoying thrillingly talented players turning out for our club, such as Currie, Bailey, Puncheon, Adomah, Bolasie, Davids (!), Villa and Akinde, alongside modern-day club heroes such as Harrison, Yakubu, Yiadom and more.

In other words, I'm proud of my club, and I'll still be proud of it if we go down to non league. Where, of course, this club has spent over 80% of its history.

Throughout this period, how much time have we spent at the same level as clubs with smaller support bases than us? Even in the Conference, supposedly medium-sized clubs such as Chester, Aldershot and Woking always get bigger home crowds than us when we're playing at the same level. If we should all be 'embarrassed' by our 'disgraceful' club, how should they feel about the fact that we are always or nearly always sat above them in the football pyramid?

Unless you support a club financed by Emirati oil wealth, you aren't going to win everything every year. And even then you might lose occasionally to the club funded by the Russian Oligarch. Every other club wins some and, more often, fails to win some.


I agree with all of your post but when have we ever played at the Madjelski stadium? :geahh:

Tony K has certainly not got a great record in football management appointments. Perhaps something like a Director of Football would make a better call?

Fully agree with that, but it would involve TK dropping an important part of his micro-management style.


In terms of TK's managerial choices, based on league finishes, only John Still (2 seasons), Paul Fairclough (1 season) and Martin Allen (1.5 seasons) have brought us a successful league campaign. Has TK not already relinquished the responsibility of appointing of our head coach? I thought McGhee oversaw the recruitment of Westley?
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby Norfolkbee » 09 Feb 2018, 14:42

If - and only if - they were looking a bringing back MA, this would most certainly have been a TK enterprise and not MM.
Didn't someone on here state that MA had discussions with TK but decided against rejoining the club or equally was rejected for whatever reasons.
Last edited by Norfolkbee on 09 Feb 2018, 15:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby Norfolk & Chance » 09 Feb 2018, 14:45

It's been a few seasons since we rejoiced our club and it maybe a few more until we do it again.
Unless we pull off yet another end of season escape.
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby Tuesds » 09 Feb 2018, 14:49

Norfolkbee wrote:
rudebwoyben wrote:
Tony K has certainly not got a great record in football management appointments. Perhaps something like a Director of Football would make a better call?

Fully agree with that, but it would involve TK dropping an important part of his micro-management style.


He’s already done this very thing in respect of appointing managers, relinquishing the choice to ‘football men’ in the form of Fairclough (who selected Robson) and McGhee (Westley)
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby NoMagRyan » 09 Feb 2018, 15:11

Norfolkbee wrote:Even some of his most ardent cheerleaders have admitted that he is lacking when it comes to his choice of manager.


I don't think anyone has ever said otherwise tbf.
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby NorthFinchleyBee » 09 Feb 2018, 15:37

I kind of agree. Many of the seasons I've been supporting Barnet has seen a squeaky bum type last day of the season type escape. And we've been a yo yo side. I'd like to see us become an established League 2 club, we've got the foundations for it, but we are not there yet. I just think this year has been particularly hard to take because of talk around playing budget, aspirations for play offs, talk of stadium expansion. When expectations are raised, and subsequently not met it's much harder to take.

looking forward to tomorrow with both hope and fear!

COYB!
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby John_c » 09 Feb 2018, 18:01

Tuesds wrote:As owner and Chairman, Kleanthous is ultimately responsible for the club's fortunes. We're 7 points adrift from safety at the bottom of the league, so he's going to get criticised. Personally, I think he made a critical mistake when he brought McGhee in over Eames's head, without consulting him or, if he did, without winning his agreement first. Bringing in an experienced, high profile figure to help guide an inexperienced manager at a time of crisis was a logical thing to do... but not without that manager's approval, and as we know it precipitated Eames's resignation and gave us two months with a manager who didn't want to be doing the job - and it showed.

Lots of other things have been said here, with reasonable views on all sides... BUT, three things get my proverbial goat:

1. Why do people see conspiracies or malign motives everywhere? I mean, Kleanthous tying the division's best striker (and the club) to a very expensive 3 year deal when most clubs would have cashed in long ago was a definite misstep in his plot to return the team to the Conference so he can run the team more cheaply and concentrate on oh my god it's so ridiculous I can't even finish this bit.

We are clearly spending vastly more on the playing staff than ever before in our history, in real terms. That's a fact. It's been badly spent in many instances, without question, but there are cheaper and more effective ways of purposefully neglecting the footballing side of a football club!

2. This notion that 'TK promised us we'd be challenging/we'd never struggle again..." Good grief. At the start of the season, there are 23 clubs who are confident they won't struggle. Our last three seasons have seen us win the Conference title and then twice finish comfortably in mid table in League 2. These have been followed by a season of severe struggle, and we all hate that. But if your response to it is 'TK promised me this couldn't happen' (he didn't), you might want to reassess things.

3. All this 'I've finally had enough' stuff... If people want to spend their own time and money on something other than following Barnet FC, that is their choice. But this idea that we have somehow had it particularly bad over the last 20 years often goes unchallenged here, and it's peculiar to me.

The four straight years of relegation battles are often trotted out, so as a modicum of counter-balance, once in a while perhaps it's worth recalling just a few of the other features of this period of supposed misery such as winning two Conference league titles, making the play-offs, two club-record FA Cup runs, going to Old Trafford (and the AMEX and St Andrews and Molinuex and Elland Road and the Liberty Stadium and more...), and enjoying thrillingly talented players turning out for our club, such as Currie, Bailey, Puncheon, Adomah, Bolasie, Davids (!), Villa and Akinde, alongside modern-day club heroes such as Harrison, Yakubu, Yiadom and more.

In other words, I'm proud of my club, and I'll still be proud of it if we go down to non league. Where, of course, this club has spent over 80% of its history.

Throughout this period, how much time have we spent at the same level as clubs with smaller support bases than us? Even in the Conference, supposedly medium-sized clubs such as Chester, Aldershot and Woking always get bigger home crowds than us when we're playing at the same level. If we should all be 'embarrassed' by our 'disgraceful' club, how should they feel about the fact that we are always or nearly always sat above them in the football pyramid?

Unless you support a club financed by Emirati oil wealth, you aren't going to win everything every year. And even then you might lose occasionally to the club funded by the Russian Oligarch. Every other club wins some and, more often, fails to win some.
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby Bee52 » 09 Feb 2018, 18:56

Amen 2. We're playing shit. Management of the team this year has been shit. But still love the club. Still believe TK loves the club albeit he's now overly focused on the commercial side of things. We're doomed for this year, although I hope to be wrong. Roll on a sensible balance and the next 3 points whenever and however.
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby ape1968 » 09 Feb 2018, 19:40

Tuesds wrote:As owner and Chairman, Kleanthous is ultimately responsible for the club's fortunes. We're 7 points adrift from safety at the bottom of the league, so he's going to get criticised. Personally, I think he made a critical mistake when he brought McGhee in over Eames's head, without consulting him or, if he did, without winning his agreement first. Bringing in an experienced, high profile figure to help guide an inexperienced manager at a time of crisis was a logical thing to do... but not without that manager's approval, and as we know it precipitated Eames's resignation and gave us two months with a manager who didn't want to be doing the job - and it showed.

Lots of other things have been said here, with reasonable views on all sides... BUT, three things get my proverbial goat:

1. Why do people see conspiracies or malign motives everywhere? I mean, Kleanthous tying the division's best striker (and the club) to a very expensive 3 year deal when most clubs would have cashed in long ago was a definite misstep in his plot to return the team to the Conference so he can run the team more cheaply and concentrate on oh my god it's so ridiculous I can't even finish this bit.

We are clearly spending vastly more on the playing staff than ever before in our history, in real terms. That's a fact. It's been badly spent in many instances, without question, but there are cheaper and more effective ways of purposefully neglecting the footballing side of a football club!

2. This notion that 'TK promised us we'd be challenging/we'd never struggle again..." Good grief. At the start of the season, there are 23 clubs who are confident they won't struggle. Our last three seasons have seen us win the Conference title and then twice finish comfortably in mid table in League 2. These have been followed by a season of severe struggle, and we all hate that. But if your response to it is 'TK promised me this couldn't happen' (he didn't), you might want to reassess things.

3. All this 'I've finally had enough' stuff... If people want to spend their own time and money on something other than following Barnet FC, that is their choice. But this idea that we have somehow had it particularly bad over the last 20 years often goes unchallenged here, and it's peculiar to me.

The four straight years of relegation battles are often trotted out, so as a modicum of counter-balance, once in a while perhaps it's worth recalling just a few of the other features of this period of supposed misery such as winning two Conference league titles, making the play-offs, two club-record FA Cup runs, going to Old Trafford (and the AMEX and St Andrews and Molinuex and Elland Road and the Liberty Stadium and more...), and enjoying thrillingly talented players turning out for our club, such as Currie, Bailey, Puncheon, Adomah, Bolasie, Davids (!), Villa and Akinde, alongside modern-day club heroes such as Harrison, Yakubu, Yiadom and more.

In other words, I'm proud of my club, and I'll still be proud of it if we go down to non league. Where, of course, this club has spent over 80% of its history.

Throughout this period, how much time have we spent at the same level as clubs with smaller support bases than us? Even in the Conference, supposedly medium-sized clubs such as Chester, Aldershot and Woking always get bigger home crowds than us when we're playing at the same level. If we should all be 'embarrassed' by our 'disgraceful' club, how should they feel about the fact that we are always or nearly always sat above them in the football pyramid?

Unless you support a club financed by Emirati oil wealth, you aren't going to win everything every year. And even then you might lose occasionally to the club funded by the Russian Oligarch. Every other club wins some and, more often, fails to win some.


Good post Tuesds but just one point that I'd like to make. And one that gets my "proverbial goat". The background is that I am proud of my club, and am pretty much unrelentingly positive in my support at games. But a lot of the "negative" posts have come from people who go to most if not all of the games and have been doing so for several years. Now - to be clear - I will not say that someone who goes to more games is more of a fan than others, or a better fan, or a more loyal fan or cares about the club better. I know fans who live thousands of miles away and care deeply about or BFC. That's not the point.

The point though is that going to the games and feeling the pain from afar is not the same. Those who attend (and I'm talking about week in week out, Conference or League Two, year after year) spend a lot of money and a whole a lot of time. They give up their holiday days from work to make Tuesday nights, they get up knackered on Wednesday mornings, they deal with the A38 and the M4 both being closed on the way back from Plymouth, stroppy stewards, traffic jams etc. etc. They go to a lot of effort, significant expense and thousands of miles of travel. I'm not looking for violins to be playing in the background here - everybody always has a choice. No one is forced to do it. They're all grown-ups they could make a different decision each week. I'm not asking for any sympathy for them. But it is a different experience. It is harder - much harder - than watching the results online. When we are constantly losing it feels very hard and very relentless and very effing annoying when you think that some players don't really care or that some manager who thinks he knows it all is going to make all the same mistakes the last one did while you stand there knowing how it's going to end. If you have been a home-and-away regular in the last ten years then most of those years have been pretty bleak. If John Erroll says he's not going to Yeovil on Tuesday, if his mate Andrew has stopped going - it's not because they're negative or defeatist. It's because they're being ground down by the endless survival battles and the thousands of miles they go through to watch them. My son - who can't remember a time when he wasn't going to watch Barnet and who deals with all the plastic Premiership pseudo-fans at his school put it pretty well a few years ago "I don't care about watching a team that wins all the time - but it's hard watching one that loses every week". Mansfield on Saturday was pretty fucking dire on every count. Most of the 79 people who were there were those who fall into the every week for every year category. They probably deserve better.

We keep the faith - we continue to support. But sometimes you just want to say "it shouldn't be this hard".
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Re: TK "Never Again"

Postby letchbee94 » 09 Feb 2018, 19:53

Top post Nik.
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