Downhill Second Half Returns + Podcast

[john dockers shorts]

One of the big issues at the time was the fact that the BFCSA had been taken over by individuals that only wanted to represent themselves, they created a Trust as an ego trip and then decided to support Hadley once the going got tough.

I forget all people involved with the Trust and this horror show, Derk, Jerry, Nosh and Oily ring a bell but I might be wrong.

These people created a huge divide within the fan base and made it very easy for TK to move us without much fuss.

Spot on, they should have called out those people on the podcast. They destroyed the BFCSA by trying some vanity project based on uni politics and foreign ownership models which were very vogue at that time and have since gone no where.

The fans who still care about the club lost out because of a few individuals and their egos.

I have no idea about the above however it certainly feels there were a lot of non football reasons resulting in not going.

I must admit I do find it random that we build a stand and name it 66 nothing to do with Barnet. Calling it the Herbie Smith stand has a much nicer sound.


Bit like when my kids get in a huff and I have to tickle them to make them laugh and get out of the hole they are in....maybe this could be a solution for you guys. Safe distance obviously!

[iBee]

I’m not i a huff but feel free to tickle away.

I just don’t like the aggressive way certain people connected to the Trust conducted themselves. The BFCSA wasn’t perfect, but is wasn’t broken. These clowns managed to destroy 70 plus years of the organisation in a matter of months.

Anyway, they are someone else’s issue as they no longer support Barnet and that is a great result for us!

[rudebwoyben]

One of the big issues at the time was the fact that the BFCSA had been taken over by individuals that only wanted to represent themselves, they created a Trust as an ego trip and then decided to support Hadley once the going got tough.

I forget all people involved with the Trust and this horror show, Derk, Jerry, Nosh and Oily ring a bell but I might be wrong.

These people created a huge divide within the fan base and made it very easy for TK to move us without much fuss.

Is that typo or a barbed comment?

[barnetjohn]

One of the big issues at the time was the fact that the BFCSA had been taken over by individuals that only wanted to represent themselves, they created a Trust as an ego trip and then decided to support Hadley once the going got tough.

I forget all people involved with the Trust and this horror show, Derk, Jerry, Nosh and Oily ring a bell but I might be wrong.

These people created a huge divide within the fan base and made it very easy for TK to move us without much fuss.

Spot on, they should have called out those people on the podcast. They destroyed the BFCSA by trying some vanity project based on uni politics and foreign ownership models which were very vogue at that time and have since gone no where.

The fans who still care about the club lost out because of a few individuals and their egos.

I think that's a bit harsh. They converted the BFCSA to a trust model. That's a fairly standard way for modern UK supporter organisations to work. It's not a "foreign ownership model". I don't think its accurate to say that the model has "since gone nowhere". It's one used up and down the country by supporters at dozens of clubs and I think is now the majority model for supporters associations.

The switch the a Trust setup, and the people behind it, were quite closely associated with the wing of the supporter base that didn't want to move to the Hive. Once the move happened they stepped down. Since then, the reason we haven't had an association is basically because no group of fans has come forward to run the Trust, so it's currently lying dormant.

Probably the name and concept of a supporters trust got tarnished in supporters eyes because it got associated with a particular push to stop the move to the Hive. But the assets, name and everything else from the Trust is still there in abeyance. If Barnet fans want to set up an organisation it's all for there for us.

[becbee]

I always feel that it's harsh to criticise others for something that I wasn't prepared to do myself. However as an observer, it was clear that The Trust was being run by fans whose hearts were ruling their heads and their heads were buried in the sand.

Re-hashing what went wrong will get us nowhere. We are at The Hive now, Underhill site is a school, we need to now get behind the club and the team. If some fans feel unable to do so, then that's a shame but ultimately, that's their decision.

[barnetjohn]

On the podcast itself, it was a good listen and I enjoyed it. They did a good job of covering the issues around the move to the Hive.

The only area I'd disagree a little with them was on the KBA, politics and local elections. I was quite heavily involved with the KBA under Janet Matthewson from 2002 onwards. I think the political parties positions on South Underhill were quite starkly different. Labour were going to support the application at a public inquiry, and were willing to sell the club the land required to achieve it. The Tories were against it. It was pretty stark choice and from the point of view of Barnet fans, it was clear what council composition we needed to achieve that. So I think KBA was right to get involved in the 2006 elections in the way it did.

Anyway, it was a really good podcast, and I thought the contributors did a good job of telling the story, and summarising what is quite a complicated and emotive issue well. And above all they did a fantastic job of discussing it in a respectful way and trying to be fair. I'd broadly agree with what they said about the manner of us leaving, lack of fan consultation etc. I think the point about fan base aging is probably true too. Obviously it's hard to gauge with formal data, but my perception is we probably don't have the same number of hard core fans in the early 20s that are the "next generation" of loyal fans, who end up bringing their kids in a decade's time etc etc. That is a bit of a worry longer term.

The Hive probably does lack the charm of Underhill, though I'd suggest that in many ways this is an issue about new grounds in general. Leaving aside the location issue, the Hive does feel more plastic, less quirky etc than Underhill, but I guess that's also true for other new stadia too. I'm sure Colchester fans would say similar about Layer Road vs their new place; or Shrewsbury fans about Gay Meadow vs the New Meadow. I think we might have been saying similar things if we'd have ended up with South Underhill or Copthall (albeit without the locational issues).

[barnetjohn]

I always feel that it's harsh to criticise others for something that I wasn't prepared to do myself. However as an observer, it was clear that The Trust was being run by fans whose hearts were ruling their heads and their heads were buried in the sand.

Re-hashing what went wrong will get us nowhere. We are at The Hive now, Underhill site is a school, we need to now get behind the club and the team. If some fans feel unable to do so, then that's a shame but ultimately, that's their decision.

I think I agree with all of that apart from the second sentence! I thought one thing the podcast did well was discuss the issues in the past quite constructively, and reflectively rather than dredging up old grievances.

On the Trust thing- I'd put it differently. There was a big range of opinion amongst Barnet fans on stadium issues, but the Trust leadership was drawn largely from one particular segment of opinion. So I think many fans felt the Trust didn't really represent their view / fully capture the breadth of views amongst fans. I had a difference of view with the Trust leadership on some stadium stuff, but wouldn't characterise them as having heads in sand. They wanted to oppose to the move to the Hive and hold a referendum- which were both reasonable views in and of themselves even if I didn't fully agree with them on all things. The bigger bone of contention for me- and I suspect a lot of Barnet fans - was the question of "what should fans do if the club moves to the Hive without asking supporters". That issue is actually the real point of disagreement I think and probably the sorer one back in 2012/13 I think.

[deedo_1990]

It has been a while since I have posted on here, which is probably to the relief of all, but I was told by a forum dweller that some stuff had been posted about the Trust and my name (or rather, a humorous variant) had been mentioned, so I thought I’d share some thoughts.

Firstly, it is worth saying the Downhill Second Half podcast was terrific. The contributors did the subject justice, and their content is great. On the issue of the Trust, seven years on I reflect on it with a lot of regret and I am sorry for the mistakes that I made. Like most, I look back on my twenties and time at uni and cringe at a lot of it. This episode is the hardest cringe of all as the outcome was quite public and alienated people and wasted the time of good people who were involved. I was stupid on multiple occasions, which was undoubtedly fuelled by some staggering naivety and a dash of ego. I’d like to say that has given way to maturity and selflessness, but I’m not so sure.

I would like to touch on a couple of things that posters have said here and on the podcast.

Beegone said the conversion of the SA to a Trust was driven by politics. I suppose that was true to an extent, in that I thought a Supporters’ Trust model was a good one. It was a properly legally constituted organisation, with all the associated transparency being listed through Companies House brings, in which elections took place to elect a board who helped to set the direction of it. The Football Supporters’ Association has over 60 of them affiliated now, with clubs at all levels having them. The model is still a good one and hopefully one that more clubs adopt. It was the right idea, proposed by entirely the wrong person. I hope the mistakes that I made do not thwart Barnet fans reconstituting it (with a different name if need be) in the future.

iBee, I do think calling Derek, Gerry and Chris clowns, considering the hours and effort they put into the KBA campaign and other campaigns, is slightly harsh and they managed to stay above some of the petty skulduggery that yours truly was responsible for. However, I am happy to accept my nomination into the clowning fraternity, as it is deserved. You mentioned the work of the BFCSA historically, and it would be churlish not to recognise that – particularly the work done in the 90s to save the club from extinction. There were some excellent people involved when the conversion happened, who were really alienated by it – including, I suspect, the three DHS contributors, and with hindsight that was an enormous regret. There is some nuance here though. At the time, the SA no longer ran coaches. Its membership was declining. Its relationship with Kleanthous was, in my view, not one of mutual respect. Others may disagree, but it felt pretty broken at the time. However, the bull (or clown) in a china shop routine was a big, big mistake.

On the actual move, it was easy for Kleanthous because the majority of supporters felt the club had outlived its time at Underhill, and would have followed it almost anywhere, including very good friends of mine. I was probably too dismissive of that eight years ago. Had a referendum taken place, I think it would have fairly strongly backed Kleanthous’s position. I can’t say what I would have done in that instance (I would have voted against a move) but I may well have given the Hive a go, although the reported queuing at the bar would have quickly dissuaded me! I know attendances of late have not been terrific but that is down to stuff on the pitch more than off it, I’d suspect.

I cannot comment on behalf of others, but I can say that seven years on I bear no ill-will towards the football club and I don’t take pleasure in the club losing games or churning through managers. In fact I’d prefer the club to do well for friends (particularly those who are prone to watching Barnet games in bars in Barbados, whilst we are watching England on a cricket tour, they know who they are) and I think the club should be commended for initiatives like the vaccination hub. I only wish that had been at a new stadium in Barnet.

My main feeling is one of regret for past mistakes. That sits alongside a sadness that the club no longer plays in Barnet and the next generation of football supporters in Barnet will not be taken to Underhill to get their first taste of live action. Although I probably would not go to games myself, I would like to see the club back in Barnet which would benefit both it, and the town itself.

I hope that makes sense - I’ll return back to my juggling now.

[MCB]

Right, I was in two minds about even listening to the podcast because of the topic, but I had a longish train journey, so popped it on and you caused me to end up in Homerton as I missed my stop nodding along to you all to your credit, even if I did end up swearing at you.

Also I'll commend Olly above for fronting up and posting above when it was easier to just ignore it, fair play to him.

I kind of see my following Barnet split into 3 sections, roughly the 90's, the 00's and the 10's. The 90's as a kid with some incredible stuff going on and the draw of Barry Fry, the 00's when I was young and free and mainly used Barnet as an excuse to get absolutely trollied with friends every weekend, and the 10's with The Hive, when a lot of my friends I went to in part 1 & 2 no longer go or have moved out of London, so have largely attended games with my daughters & friends only returning for the bigger games. God knows how Part 4 will act out as my girls don't particularly enjoy it, so i'll probably be coming with my flask of tea sitting on my todd.

Basically there's a huge amount I agree with, and a huge amount i've got issues with, but for everyone there is natural evolution in their lives, that's, well life.

So largely, i've enjoyed all the DSH podcasts, they were some of my happiest times, but, well, they were all in the past. There's seemingly no future episodes being written here, there's only so many times you can reminisce about Greg Heald kicking a streaker. But there is a failure to me to recognise that actually there were some truly awful, awful dire years thrown in. Seasons when 711 turn up at home, streaks we'd go 10 games without winning, you see the changing manager every 2 weeks as symptomatic of the Hive, yet we went through 8 managers in our last 4 years at Underhill? Angrily blaming Davids for not attending away games - which didn't happen at Underhill (yep - later corrected) doesn't do justice to one of the most magical half seasons i've seen at Underhill.

But as a lot of our best times overlap - i've got to ask - how much of your amazing memories of Underhill was down to the people you were with, the drinks you drunk and the fun you had? It was certainly a large part of mine best times supporting the club. But the football was by and large, bloody awful, the experiences were shocking, the club was ramshackle. You're annoyed at waiting ages at half time for a pint, well ok (and that has improved), but getting a pint wasn't an option at half time at Underhill, I get the same vibe from people genuinely upset when the scoreboard doesn't work (i'll give a hint, it's Barnet nil).

There is a hell of a lot wrong with the club (I mean, this is the worst team since i've started supporting them, but we're not really touching on that) - but I think that vast improvements have been made since the first Chester game in the first season. But the biggest loss to me has been the eradication of the Supporters Association. No, I was never involved, but I always felt there was a group of people prepared to put the supporters best interest at heart. I won't go into the BFCSA / Trust stuff as everyone has a different viewpoint but the nett result is there is no longer ANY supporters link to the club after 85+ years, and that is the first step to actually generating a buzz about the place again (of course that would mean getting everything that happened previously).

I definitely think there is a lot of romanticising going on about Underhill. If we were still there (fighting for first aid certificates and the like) i'd probably be attending less. That's not to say I wouldn't like to be back there, of course I would.

But before this descends into a really boring monologue (sorry probably already has) - my questions would be -

- Now what? You've effectively decided that Barnet will no longer be part of life anymore. That's sad. Do you think part of not going anymore is simply just due to life?
- What would it take to you to actively attend Barnet at The Hive? And if not, have you tried to find 'the buzz' anywhere else? Obviously a few people now watch Hadley and so on.

Chatting to a couple of school friends recently, one I used to go to Arsenal with, another is now a Spurs Season ticket holder which I used quite a lot last last year (he pays on average £108 per game - atmosphere is overrated btw). Both hate their new stadiums to differing degrees, which is odd considering one moved about a mile, and the other simply 90 degrees. But they hate what their clubs have become, the money in the EPL, and the Arsenal fan simply doesn't go (apart from the odd League Cup game) due to cost and availability. The reality is that football has changed across the board and a lot of people don't like it - your experience is not unique.

So final question - as i'm always trying to look forward -

- What do you see as Barnet's future - with or without you on board?

3 things that did resonate - the lack of pubs, nothing the club can do about it, but I do miss playing pool post game until closing time at the Queens, black and AMBER - yes you're so right, something so simple that means a lot to people, and the lack of recognition of our history at Underhill. I think that's more down to changing our media managers more often that our managers, and them being only 16 based on we can pay them peanuts. But i'd love to see more of our heritage recognised online, on social media and definitely at the club itself. I never picked up on the shirts being wrong in Legends - but there were a couple of misspellings initially which needled me.

Will add i've never paid £25, I don't know anyone who has, and yes the club was stupid to set walk up prices that high, but to complain about prices going up £2 and in the same breath admit to getting £100 worth of free tickets to attend games is odd. Also the ticket office thing - yeh - if you're 90 and don't have a smart phone don't have a smart phone, fair enough - but i'm used to booking my ticket on the tube up and scanning the ticket on the way in. It's only not worked once - and took 5 seconds to resolve. Is that really an issue?! At this point it did feel a bit like ranting for rants sake tbh!

Edit - whoops, sorry, it is one long monologue.

[iBee]

Good reply OD. Still actually believe that one of the biggest issues with the trust was the aggression of one of the founder members and his willingness to fight anyone that disagreed with him.

[barnetjohn]

Great post MCB. Really good reflections.I enjoyed reading it!

I think I agree that there is a bit of romanticising about Underhill. It's kind of inevitable with any form of nostalgia that people tend to filter away the dull bits and remember the highlights.

The atmosphere in those final few seasons wasn't always great. I came back to London in 2011 after seven years abroad and 15 years of not living in London. I remember at the time thinking the East Terrace had lost a bit of its sparkle, edge and atmosphere and we seemed to be struggling to recruit a new base of younger hardcore fans.

Also good point about scoreboards and bars. We (and I) complain about them not working at the Hive but we didn't even have them at Underhill. I suspect Underhill was more like a beloved old relative whose faults we forgave and loved them all the more for because they added character. The Hive is more of a step-parent that we never really approved of that we have to have to put up with at family gatherings and so the faults and failings needle us more.

I'd love to see the club playing in Amber again. Worth saying that even before TK the colours did vary and weren't always Amber. The 91 kit was definitely orange. And the 93 kit had an almost peach tint (perhaps due to repated washing fading colours). It'd be a nice gesture fron TK and a good way to reconnect the club with its heritage if we went back to an amber kit next year.

[Reckless]

Well I for one will forever now call you Oily Dodds. Only because that is what VIZ would have called you.

[letchbee94]

Good post Olly and fair play to coming back and explaining your self.

I think 1 thing that is certain our attendances might be down at moment (pre covid) but we do have alot of fans out there (just look at Brentford cup game)

[erichitchmo]

Reading this back makes me think we might have enough to go on and address tomorrow...

[gafferbee]

I might have missed the contribution cut-off but for what it’s worth I’d add that I’m another who listened to the podcast with great interest and thought it was a very good effort. But I’m more in sync with MCB’s reply above than the podcasters’ interpretation. For me, MCB hits the nail on the head by identifying his own personal phases of being a Barnet fan. They are different than the DSH gang, just because he’s obviously a bit older. My own experience sounds more in line with MCB’s: those of us who fell for the club in the 90s will have had a very different first decade as a Bees fan than those who started with BFC getting relegated back to the Conference in 2001. And by the time we were moving on from Underhill life had started to come at me fast: kids, the loss of a parent, moving away from anywhere close to Underhill. Perhaps I wasn’t affected as viscerally as the podcasters (and many others) at the time.

So while I don’t think DSH are trying to speak for all Barnet fans - they’re not really trying to make that claim - I agree with MCB that I wonder if they’ve thought enough about what they really do want from football, or from Barnet. Do you want a team, a club you can support through thick and (mainly) thin? Or do you prefer what the rest of football has become now — sanitised super-stadia, bite size highlights, YouTubers unboxing “icons” on Fifa all day long. That’s where my son is ending up now without a vibrant Barnet FC to win him round. He supports Liverpool, for god’s sake. That’s why I’m angry at BFC and TK for letting us down on the pitch over the last 7 years. But it’s also why my heart is still with the Bees, why I look for their results every week whether I’m able to get to a match or not, and why I still lurk on this board and listen to podcasts about things I can’t remember that happened a decade ago.

We’ve all got memories locked away that make us tingle with excitement and make us wistful that we can’t recreate them all these years later. From the sound of it, going all-in on the BFC madhouse as teens and young adults was an intense and formative experience for the DSHers, and this year’s podcast series has been admirable attempt to recapture some of those highs. But as MCB points out, these stories aren’t new. The next chapters — for better or for worse — are being written at the Hive.